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CPU Package Power: Strange results
#1
Hey there,
I started HWInfo (newest version) to see how much power my 7820x needs under full AVX load (4.2GHz incl. AVX offset) and
HWInfo tells me it needs about 1.7W, what would be very nice but is obviously wrong. So I started Core Temp (newest version) and got the same results.
So I guess I am missing something here. Maybe there is a special setting in the BIOS i need to check?

Thanks!

   
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#2
Is SVID support enabled in BIOS? If not, that's the reason.
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#3
Thank you, that was the problem indeed. I left the SVID disabled, because BIOS says "leave on disabled when overclocking your CPU".
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#4
That depends on how you overclock the CPU. Especially when you raise BCLK > 150 MHz you should disable it, or in some other extreme OC cases.
Note that by disabling SVID, the CPU loses the entire telemetry about current/power consumption and additional VRM/PWM control.
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#5
I see. Since the 7820x's official turbo is 4.3GHz and I limit it to 4.3GHz (AVX offset is 1, so 4.2GHz in AVX mode) I don't think I'm doing OC here. So far, CPU Package Power is about 35W in idle and around 145W under 4.2GHz full AVX load. I did some serious undervolting so this seems to pay. About the SVID setting: Does this also mean that I disable any power saving behaviour by CPU/mainboard when I switch SVID off, because CPU can not control it's own power consumption anymore? So enabling SVID saves me some power?

I thought about switching to the 9900k, because it's supposed to be as fast as the 7820x when doing x265 encoding, while the 9900k is in strict base mode of 3.6Ghz (95 TDP) and the 7820x is already in wasteful Turbo mode (https://www.anandtech.com/show/13591/the...-for-sff/7). Quite tempting when doing lots of x265 video encoding. But my real hope lies on Zen 2, because they will have improved FPU units. A 12-core 105 TDP Ryzen in 7nm with the FPUs Intel uses these days could be really something.
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#6
Auto voltages of motherboards tend to be too high, leading exceeding TDP which then causes power limits to be activated.

I have found that using lower LLC actually is good with stock clocks. that allows to use less offset voltage so that at idle voltage does not drop too much and at load it is within specs.

For example my CPU wants 1.2-1.3V at full load, but with 1.15V it runs just fine and I don't need to increase power limits at stock clocks. Also helps miserable VRM on z370 board to remain under critical temperature.

Still with 1 core load voltages peak to 1.378V without much possibilities to keep them lower, CPU wants 1.45V at that point, which is kinda ridiculous lot for 8086k

So at idle I have now 0.58xV single core load peaks at 1.378V and full load of all cores is 1.15V, that is using offset mode.

Asus sometimes sets vcore to 1.065V sometimes 1.128V all that is needed is change settings and change them back, that also then affects to how many watts CPU takes under full load and hot it runs, despite having same offset as well as same every other settings.

Not very impressed of z370 motherboards, compared to Z170 board all that I have seen have been rather poor junk, this latest Asus ROG variant is the best, but still quite weak, VRM needs active cooling if putting CPU under maximum stress for extended period of time, even when having such low voltages.

HWInfo is not showing watts to me, but CPU ID HW Monitor is showing wattages, 95-97W at maximum load with 4.3Ghz.

Oh and enabling MCE, then disabling it has something weird too, because then again wattage remains higher even I check my voltages being same as before.

95W TDP is also seriously limiting this CPU as well the useless TIM, I'm not sure if new AMD will be better, but current CPUs are dropping turbo speed so quickly that their single core speeds are fast only in theory and single core speed is only thing that has been limiting performance in my use so far, 6 threads would be enough, but really would like to have that 5Ghz when all cores are loaded.

Maybe I install water cooling for the VRM and delid + put chemical metal on CPU some day.
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#7
(02-02-2019, 01:59 PM)fufsgfen Wrote: Auto voltages of motherboards tend to be too high, leading exceeding TDP which then causes power limits to be activated.

I have found that using lower LLC actually is good with stock clocks. that allows to use less offset voltage so that at idle voltage does not drop too much and at load it is within specs.

For example my CPU wants 1.2-1.3V at full load, but with 1.15V it runs just fine and I don't need to increase power limits at stock clocks. Also helps miserable VRM on z370 board to remain under critical temperature.

Still with 1 core load voltages peak to 1.378V without much possibilities to keep them lower, CPU wants 1.45V at that point, which is kinda ridiculous lot for 8086k

So at idle I have now 0.58xV single core load peaks at 1.378V and full load of all cores is 1.15V, that is using offset mode.

Asus sometimes sets vcore to 1.065V sometimes 1.128V all that is needed is change settings and change them back, that also then affects to how many watts CPU takes under full load and hot it runs, despite having same offset as well as same every other settings.

Not very impressed of z370 motherboards, compared to Z170 board all that I have seen have been rather poor junk, this latest Asus ROG variant is the best, but still quite weak, VRM needs active cooling if putting CPU under maximum stress for extended period of time, even when having such low voltages.

HWInfo is not showing watts to me, but CPU ID HW Monitor is showing wattages, 95-97W at maximum load with 4.3Ghz.

Oh and enabling MCE, then disabling it has something weird too, because then again wattage remains higher even I check my voltages being same as before.

95W TDP is also seriously limiting this CPU as well the useless TIM, I'm not sure if new AMD will be better, but current CPUs are dropping turbo speed so quickly that their single core speeds are fast only in theory and single core speed is only thing that has been limiting performance in my use so far, 6 threads would be enough, but really would like to have that 5Ghz when all cores are loaded.

Maybe I install water cooling for the VRM and delid + put chemical metal on CPU some day.

Which mainboard do you have? Is there no CPU Package Power reported in HWiNFO?
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#8
(02-02-2019, 01:59 PM)fufsgfen Wrote: I have found that using lower LLC actually is good with stock clocks. that allows to use less offset voltage so that at idle voltage does not drop too much and at load it is within specs.
That's what I had found with my former 8700k. But with the 7820x I have best experiences with LLC on Auto and an offset with 0.09V. Idle is on 35-40W which is very good. I also limited my CPU to 4.3GHz (all core) and 4.2GHz AVX (all core), running with "only" 140-150W when doing extensive AVX calculations for video transcoding. Sure, there is still some room for higher clocks but there are reasons not to do so:

1.) Since I had not found an ultra silent AIO water cooling till this day I am on serious air cooling. I want my PC to be silent when on idle, even with an open case. I can have that with my beQuiet Dark Rock Pro and SilentWings, with a water pump I can't. Teach me otherweise -- I would be very happy, seriously.

2.) The cores of my 7820x differ a lot regarding to temps: Coolest core is on 65°C when the hottest is on 90°C. I could do a delid but I wont, because 90°C are in range and above 4.3GHz power consumption increases insanely, so with 4.2GHz AVX I have the sweet spot and I spare the money for the delid service/device (I will switch in 4-5 months to a new system anyways).

(02-02-2019, 01:59 PM)fufsgfen Wrote: For example my CPU wants 1.2-1.3V at full load, but with 1.15V it runs just fine and I don't need to increase power limits at stock clocks. Also helps miserable VRM on z370 board to remain under critical temperature.
Sounds good. I tended to seek for the maximum OC but nowadays I go for faster and more expensive CPUs to let them work on stock turbo or even less. I stressed my power bill a lot the past years.

(02-02-2019, 01:59 PM)fufsgfen Wrote: Not very impressed of z370 motherboards, compared to Z170 board all that I have seen have been rather poor junk, this latest Asus ROG variant is the best, but still quite weak, VRM needs active cooling if putting CPU under maximum stress for extended period of time, even when having such low voltages.
I am a big fan of the ASUS Prime series for many years now. They offer the quality of the ROG boards without all the bling bling and gamer accent (I am a gamer myself but I dont need this to be constantly emphasized by my hard- and software) and you save some money because of their pureness. I tried Aorus and Asrock Extreme for a short period but the Aorus could not compete with the all the BIOS comfort of a Prime and the Extreme was a total desaster regarding power consumption and reliability.

(02-02-2019, 01:59 PM)fufsgfen Wrote: HWInfo is not showing watts to me, but CPU ID HW Monitor is showing wattages, 95-97W at maximum load with 4.3Ghz.
I have a strong feeling you may have misunderstood the meaning of TDP. A TDP of 95W says that a CPU of this type needs (roughly) 95W to have all cores run at base(!) clock speed. So if your 8086k (4.0GHz base, 5.0GHz turbo) runs on 4.3GHz with 95W this is very good and no need to complain at all (https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/core_i7/i7-8086k). If you want it to run on more than 4.3GHz you have to give him a higher power limit (e.g. 130W) and raise the frequency in BIOS. Of course you have to watch the temperatures as well. You may be confused that I run my 7820x (140TDP) with 140-150W maximum but that is because its sweet spot is very low and x299 is a terrible platform so my 7820x is on a constant diet.

(02-02-2019, 01:59 PM)fufsgfen Wrote: Maybe I install water cooling for the VRM and delid + put chemical metal on CPU some day.
...or you could save the money for fixing Intel's flaws and go for Zen 2 (maybe the upcoming Ryzen 7 3700x 12 core with 105 TDP) or wait some more for Ice Lake 10nm. Both generations will make Coffee Lake and Zen look very outdated due to the new process of 7nm and 10nm. But well, it always depends on what you need your CPU for. Gaming? Video transcoding? Music production?

I already decided to switch to Zen 2 this summer after many years with Intel. It will hurt a bit but Intel did a terrible job regarding mainstream processors the past years. Selling unsoldered CPUs like for x299 to save some cent in production? Now soldering the overpriced 9900k but not doing it properly, delid is still worth doing for a 2018's soldered CPU that costs 500 Euro? No way, I'm out. I will go for a 16 core Zen 2 with 135 TDP in 7nm process with doubled FPUs (comparing to Zen+) for a decent price (https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ry...38233.html).
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#9
(02-02-2019, 04:02 PM)Martin Wrote: Which mainboard do you have? Is there no CPU Package Power reported in HWiNFO?

Actually I was mistaken, as I did disable monitorings earlier, some I had managed to hide, I did go trough layout list and there I found power information, so all is good now, user error Smile

(02-02-2019, 04:15 PM)Loomes Wrote: I have a strong feeling you may have misunderstood the meaning of TDP. A TDP of 95W says that a CPU of this type needs (roughly) 95W to have all cores run at base(!) clock speed. So if your 8086k (4.0GHz base, 5.0GHz turbo) runs on 4.3GHz with 95W this is very good and no need to complain at all (https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/core_i7/i7-8086k). If you want it to run on more than 4.3GHz you have to give him a higher power limit (e.g. 130W) and raise the frequency in BIOS. Of course you have to watch the temperatures as well. You may be confused that I run my 7820x (140TDP) with 140-150W maximum but that is because its sweet spot is very low and x299 is a terrible platform so my 7820x is on a constant diet.


No, what I meant is that as CPU is designed for 95W, it's cooling is designed to 95W, so while it can run 5Ghz all cores, TIM is not transferring heat from die to heat spreader and CPU cooler enough fast. with delid it might be possible, but if CPU would of designed for constant 150W heat dissipation, surface area might be bit higher and CPU actually would be possible to be run at maximum frequency chip is capable of.

VRM is not really up to task for running CPU even at 95W long times, increasing power limit would just cause VRM safeties to kick in. Z370 and 8th gen is terrible platform, only highest cost motherboards seem to be ones that are up to task, but even then one needs to delid CPU.

Oh yes, noise is indeed super annoying aspect, that is why I'm running Macho Rev.B with two fans. Asus board is not allowing me to run them below 560rpm though, but there is no need to run them higher either as useless TIM in CPU is not transferring more heat than what two fans with that cooler at 560rpm can get rid of. Can't hear fans though, so it is all nice, except can't get VRM cooling in.

Don't want noisy AIO though, I had self made custom water cooling back at 1998 (water cooling was not exactly readily available back then), which was quiet, passive huge house heating radiator, more than 20 liters of water and huge aquarium pump that did not make any sound when sitting in bottom of water bucket. If those AIO things are annoying buzzing things, then I will not get such for sure!

I might keep running this system until Zen 4 though, runs fine and I don't find much need for higher single core performance either, but yeah Intel stuff has become quite horrible, I hope that Zen2 can run at max turbo clocks without ridiculous heat issues like intel has, 4th gen I7 is still competing just fine for single core performance of modern CPUs, one just needs to overclock it to maximum, progress has been quite slow for years, but luckily we are seeing better options in future Big Grin

I need fast single core speed for BeamNG.Drive, but that also benefits from high core count, as long as single core speed is at best possible, it has kinda special needs. Also Raceroom and ETS2 need fast single core. I have something like 208 at SC Cinebench, 215-220 would be where I get all 12 threads utilized to maximum while having maximum GPU utilization.

With 208 SC Cinebench score there can be some rare situations where I get drops under 60fps, but when all cores are loaded, SC speed drops and sadly TIM does not transfer enough heat and VRM is not enough good to keep more than 4.3Ghz with all cores loaded. Might get 4.6Ghz with better VRM cooling though, but yeah, you know the thing, always something to tweak Smile

Thanks to HWInfo it is easy to tweak things, also HWInfo did help me greatly to figure out that single core speed is what I need more, just set logging to 250ms when playing and check maximum thread usage afterwards vs GPU utilization and FPS, graphed in excel, that was in old version that did save log at 250ms intervals, 1 second does not catch those load spikes so well.
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